There was something special about this RV. I hope it won't be an anti-climax, because I suspect some of you expected some very exotic location.

It is possible - also due to the circumstances - that the results will be presented a bit later. I'll leave it up to the target provider of this month to reveal the details.

I was late with my entry, so I haven't seen the target either. Please, Curt Hoffman, can you enlighten us?

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kathy turner (Jul 14, 2004 02:12 p.m.):
Oh NO - Curt was the sender - I wander what bit of trickery he's come up with!!! Some small bone or a shard of pottery or even a herkeimer diamond??????? Well it will be interesting to see!
Kathy

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Heh, heh, heh!

But actually, folks, the "trickery" consisted of there being three senders from the same location (as I had suggested in a post following June's challenge): myself, Goshandgolly, and Phil Graham, who is a recently graduated student of mine and a gifted psidreamer. And while the target was related to Native Americans, it was by no means small in size as Kathy suggested! More info and pix will follow, once the 3 of us have figured out how to score your entries (probably by tomorrow night). IMO there were some good hits this time around, both on the location details and the symbolic significance of the site.

Curt

At least you can give the information about the target and process, leave the scores later. Do you also testing our curiosity? I can hear your; heh..heh..heh.. - ilkin

Here is a picture of the site schematic, which Curt drew during the RV Target "sending." There's more to the story, but I'll let Curt tell it, if he so wishes!

Oh by Gosh and Golly!

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elif (Jul 15, 2004 03:10 p.m.):
Dear Curt;

At least you can give the information about the target and process, leave the scores later. Do you also testing our curiosity? I can hear your; heh..heh..heh.. - ilkin

---

OK, I am posting the location details; Gosh will (shortly) post pictures.

Location: Turtle Rock, Great Brook State Park, Carlisle, Massachusetts
Specific site details: This is a Native American ceremonial site. There are two very large stones; one of them is relatively broad and flat (about 3 1/2 feet above ground surface), with a detached cubical stone at one end. This is interpreted by Native people as a turtle, with its head facing directly towards summer solstice sunset. The other, about 25 feet away, is sharply ridged, about 15 feet high, and has an appendage which some Native people think of as the ears of a rabbit. The location is about 30 feet from a small pond which contains turtles, muskrats, and water snakes (all 3 observed by senders). There are also various kinds of birds which we heard in the woods.
Symbolic Significance: In Native American mythology, the turtle symbolizes the North American Continental Plate, aka "Turtle Island". The turtle was the first solid thing to emerge from the primordial waters, and on its back people built settlements. The rabbit is usually a Trickster figure but he is also associated with the Sun, which he caused to return after an eclipse. Native people paid a lot of attention to the key points in the annual cycle, especially solstices, and held ceremonies associated with these times.
Personal details: While sending, I had the sense that I had gone out to find the receivers, tied a rawhide rope around them as a group and led them to the site. I also had the impression of a golden template which seems to be a schematic of the site. Gosh will send this as an image later. Other senders can add their own personal details.

We are still hashing out the results. It is hard, because some receivers tuned in to one of these 4 criteria while others tuned into others. Maybe we'll cite a winner and runners-up for each category.

Curt

Hmmmm...

Looks interesting, but somehow I don't think it was the RV challenge I took part in...

Rawhide rope, huh? Yeah, perhaps I got that bit...

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

Very interesting - looks like I had good match in a dream I had after a very casual incubation the night before the viewing.(A non-lucid dream I did not submit - so don't bother looking for it! <g>). One question though - did you drive to the target site seperately, or did you car pool and arrive together in one vehicle, like a van? The dream I had suggested that you did the latter.

Ed

click on attachment

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Ed K (Jul 16, 2004 07:17 a.m.):
Hi Gosh and all -

Very interesting - looks like I had good match in a dream I had after a very casual incubation the night before the viewing.(A non-lucid dream I did not submit - so don't bother looking for it! <g>). One question though - did you drive to the target site seperately, or did you car pool and arrive together in one vehicle, like a van? The dream I had suggested that you did the latter.

Ed

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Dear Ed:

What color was the van? I'll explain after you answer.

Gosh.

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Goshengolly (Jul 16, 2004 07:29 a.m.):
REVISED SCHEMATIC PHOTO from Curt Showing the location of the "senders."

click on attachment

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This is not actually a photo, but a representation of something I saw while meditating at the site during the sending - it just popped into my head and stayed for some time. The schematic doesn't quite do it justice -- it was 3-dimensional, and the darker areas were impressed into the gold plate at a depth of about 1/4" -- but I realized after viewing it for a while that it was a schematic of where we were.

Curt

I don't want to take this thread off on a side issue here with details of my dream - for now, I'd rather hear what you and Curt have to say about the official and submitted entries. However, if you or Curt want to see my dream report for curiosities sake I'll send it to you by email.

Ed

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Ed K (Jul 16, 2004 08:52 a.m.):
Hi Gosh -

I don't want to take this thread off on a side issue here with details of my dream - for now, I'd rather hear what you and Curt have to say about the official and submitted entries. However, if you or Curt want to see my dream report for curiosities sake I'll send it to you by email.

Ed

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Ed, the question I am asking "is" related to this RV contest. If you would, could you please post the color of the van, and the model, if you recall it?

TY,
Gosh

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Goshengolly (Jul 16, 2004 07:32 a.m.):

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Ed K (Jul 16, 2004 07:17 a.m.):
Hi Gosh and all -

Very interesting - looks like I had good match in a dream I had after a very casual incubation the night before the viewing.(A non-lucid dream I did not submit - so don't bother looking for it! <g>). One question though - did you drive to the target site seperately, or did you car pool and arrive together in one vehicle, like a van? The dream I had suggested that you did the latter.

Ed

---

Dear Ed:

What color was the van? I'll explain after you answer.

Gosh.

---

Ed -
While it would still be interesting to know the color of the van you saw, the actual answer to your question is that the 3 of us arrived at a prearranged meeting place several miles away for lunch, in separate cars. Phil left his car parked there and rode to the site with me, and back to his car with Gosh (I had a later appointment that afternoon). None of us drives a van.

Curt

Curt and all whatever you do , you don't have any additional rights from the begining announcement of this. And many people are saying that they can not get in.As aýn example I have already wrote to Harry days before that; even if I can make a hit it will not be a result of a sccess but a coincidence becouse I didn't felt any connection but faced barriers. I also wrote you you can delate my mails because as a coincidence(if there is a coincidence in life) all vent bad. I m writing these as one who is considering herself not participating the RV but only send mails for my regard to Harry. Sorry. Ýlkin.

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elif (Jul 16, 2004 05:37 p.m.):
Do we have to wait a week, a month or more? .

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Everyone please understand that, with 3 senders, we are having some difficulty in reaching agreement on the scoring. There have also been computer difficulties today.

But, more importantly, I think that what matters is that you all participated in the challenge! We are not competing with each other, really! We are trying to achieve something as a group consciousness. As I said in an earlier post, just by participating we are all winners. Let's take a breath, cool our emotional reactions, and concentrate on what we have achieved over the past 3 months, and what we can yet achieve if we persevere. Of course there will be difficulties. We are trying something that hasn't been tried before, at least not in a systematic way! We will grope and stumble some -- that is to be expected. But if we "keep on keeping on" we will surely get somewhere with this. My congratulations to all of you, and especially to Harry for having conceived of this idea!

Curt

What do you mean by the saying:

"who ever tells the right will sent of at least from 9 villages. Let it be me. - ilkin"

It sounds like an important saying to you.

Please share it with us, as we await the results from the RV contest!

Thank you,

GosirenGolly

It is a more than a thousands years telling. Considering how many towns there had been more than a thousands year ago (especially in Anatolia, the current times most civilizied and crowded area- for every 9 villlages may be only one villlages Fraance, England etc) it is very understandable and open even for everyone what they do to the one's who tells the truth. Try to dream those times and than travel to dream these times...........- ilikin

You mean this one?

Or this one? Or this?

But more seriously, it will be interesting to see the results, and to have a discussion about group consensus... er... I mean, group consciousness. *winks at Curt*

Actually, I'd love to know more about the site, because those seemingly innocent photographs made me feel uncomfortable in a similar way to the viewing, and also reminded me of a dream, Native American theme (which I can't recall ever having had before), from last summer. Curt, do you know in what ways the site would have been used, other than marking the solstices and equinoxes? Would it have been a place of justice, of some sort?

Lots more questions, but I'll hold on for now.

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

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Kay (Jul 17, 2004 04:25 a.m.):
Jumping Jack? he he

You mean this one?

Or this one? Or this?

But more seriously, it will be interesting to see the results, and to have a discussion about group consensus... er... I mean, group consciousness. *winks at Curt*

Actually, I'd love to know more about the site, because those seemingly innocent photographs made me feel uncomfortable in a similar way to the viewing, and also reminded me of a dream, Native American theme (which I can't recall ever having had before), from last summer. Curt, do you know in what ways the site would have been used, other than marking the solstices and equinoxes? Would it have been a place of justice, of some sort?

Lots more questions, but I'll hold on for now.

Kay

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None of the above is the one I was thinking of Kay
BUT I love the frog - and he'd definitely do - and so would the exuberant clapper!
Kathy

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kathy turner (Jul 17, 2004 02:59 a.m.):
Eh Curt, Gosh and Phil Graham - you've done a REALLY interesting thing: to try three senders - and choosing such a site. You've done a REALLY good job of posting the images of the place and Curt's image.
AND - it will even be MORE interesting to see HOW you decide - because every new way we try this it FORCES us to think of new aspects.
I was thinking today -its such a wonderfully playful game - and thinking of the incredible bravery of those who have sent images to others - and thinking of all the enormous work all the senders have put into their work.
I'm standing and applauding all of you!! (and if I could I'd add Kay's jumping jack here!!!)
Kathy

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And now . . . the results. Such as they are. One of the unforeseen consequences of having 3 senders is that each of us had rather different ideas about the results, even though we had agreed beforehand about the method of scoring. Basically, we took the 4 categories I mentioned in my earlier post and rated each entry on a scale of 0 to 5 on each category. We then took the average rating as a composite. I also tried something a little different (marked "Curt #2" in the attached table) and weighted the site details and symbolic significance categories twice what the other two were weighted. As you can see, the results are not all that enlightening! I even tried comparing the ranks statistically using the Spearman Rank-Order (rho) statistic; Gosh and I had significant overlaps at the .01 confidence interval for both of my methods, but Phil did not have significant overlaps with either of us. Discussion amongst us (which is what took up the better part of the week, sorry for the delays) did not resolve these issues.

One of the things which I noticed in going through the entries which may be of some interest for the future is that there were occasions when the receiver got an image but then let their conscious mind work on it. Usually in these cases the initial impression was more accurate than the thought process, which tended to cause it to drift away from what we were sending. This suggests that we ought in the future to pay more attention to the initial impressions, no matter how strange or prosaic they may be, "without an attempt to shovel a glimpse into the ditch of what each one means" to quote Bob Dylan.

Tjitske - right country, image of gate very accurate (but not a detail we sent; it is on the way to the site. Ranks: 7, 11, 8.5, 9.5.

Harry (RV) - round object, place of worship. Ranks: 2.5, 11, 10.5, 9.5

Kay (RV) - water, oppressed feeling (near rocks?), male sender (2 out of 3!). Ranks: 1, 8.5, 8.5, 9.5

Leslie - rope around figure, outdoor location. Ranks: 7, 11, 13, 15

Kathy - vertical wall, sunlight, moisture. Ranks: 10.5, 1, 4, 3

Kay (dream) - stone "needles", water to SE, sun. Ranks: 7, 6.5, 6, 6

Leon - building to left, rope, flying (all 3 senders had flying dreams the following night). Ranks: 12, 2, 4, 4.5

Bjo - summer sun, par, incline, wall, lines. Ranks: 14, 4.5, 8.5, 7

Gillian - circle, square, ritual, tradition, sun. Ranks: 10.5, 3, 1.5, 1

Sao (RV) - New England, rectangle, trees near water. Ranks: 7, 6.5, 6, 6

Victoria -- woods, ceremony. Ranks: 2.5, 11, 10.5, 9.5

Hannah - rabbit, religious site. Ranks: 14, 8.5, 1.5, 2

Beth - snake, bird (both present). Ranks: 4, 6.5, 14.5, 13.5

Harry (dream) - snake, lines of energy. Ranks: 7, 13, 10.5, 9.5

Diana - squiggles (lines of energy?). Ranks:
14, 15, 14.5, 13.5

If people want, I can post the original dream/RV -- but I won't do that without your permission. Or, you can post your own.

Best,
Curt

Curt, I'd say as well as not working well in a print format, the tables and encapsulated headers do little for the participants comprehension either. For instance I'm having a hard time with how "squiggles" gains a score of 14, 15, 14.5, and 13.5. Clearly must be something missing there...

On my own part, I did get some 'personal' hits, or hits that the senders might not glean from my submission. I think my conscious impressions were a little iffy-but might be significant in some way since Curt was sending a 'template' rather than the experience of the site and what I got seemed to be sort of like a partial template, But my dream was pretty interesting. I mention I was "playing a gig with s, d and k,' but did not mention (or realize myself till later) that 's, d and k' are two male and one female friend who live in three different places out of town... 'remote friends' so to speak. I also saw myself in a church, and walked up on the altar (I assume the stones may have had such purpose) and found three $100 bills, which it seems to me, may have been an attempt to tell myself that the 'trinity' had significance. Also in retrospect the 'church' was only a partial structure, or a ruin, with entire walls missing through which I glimpsed a wooded area. I also described men with brown face-paint wearing derbies (hats), but did not go into detail that these men strongly reminded me of some of Cormac Mcarthy's sort of signature "apocalyptic indian warriors" which are often seen in bizarre and incongruous scavenged clothing (such as wedding dresses). I didn't describe it but in retrospect aspects of the 'brown man' I encountered reminded me of the stereotypical 'dime store indian' - sort of a mute and inscrutable urbanized medicine man.

Also the 'tone' of both my conscious and dreamt submissions seemed a little... uncomfortable, a little angsted and paranoid... which leads me to wonder if anyone was a little 'psychically uncomfortable' at the site... (obviously Kathy seems to be picking up on this as well)

Usually in participating I feel it's proper to minimalize the information as much as possible. I try to avoid the fishiness of submitting encyclopedic lists of colors, geometric shapes and geographies, lol. Usually I submit the actual entry from my dream journal without much elaboration, but I do write these entries in a kind of shorthand to myself, or more truly, I leave out a lot of detail because I know the word images will usually re-evoke the visual image in my head without being intensely specific. Just an acknowledgment that I think in future I'll try to be as descriptive and thorough as possible about the details of the dreams/impressions.

---

One of the things which I noticed in going through the entries which may be of some interest for the future is that there were occasions when the receiver got an image but then let their conscious mind work on it.

---

You could say that again, Curt! I got so little coming through that my mind went absolutely ballistic filling in the gaps! I think I’d rather not have everybody know what I came up with – too embarrassing! Well, on the other hand, if I think of it as an experiment… What I’m trying to say is that ultimately one would want to know how to interpret impressions in order to deduce what or where the target is. Only I think it was premature in my case, to attempt this. I tried too hard and got it horribly wrong. And I’ll add a curious little note here: in my not so successful attempt at interpreting my impressions, about the last thing I said was that I was going to stick my neck out, real far… (and be decisive about the location) and I almost deleted the comment before sending the email, because it felt out of character for me to say it. And when I saw the target, the turtle image in particular, this comment of mine came back to me. If I had been making comments about a dream, more in general, I would have paid attention to that myself, but at that point my mind was set on what I thought I had perceived. Now it almost looks like a last attempt of my dreaming mind…

The site, then. Is there more information to be had about it? In my post above I asked about other uses, if it was a place where a tribe (tribes?) gathered at the solstices, would that have coincided with councils of the Elders, for example? Matters brought before the Elders? Of justice? Marriages? That was kind of what I was after, and I thought it interesting to see that sao had dreamt of a church.

I also wonder if, since this was an ancient and sacred site, there might be reason to believe that it would have been psychically protected? And thus made for that sense of barriers that some of us encountered. In my viewing I ‘saw’ next to nothing, and I am usually very visually inclined, but my only impressions were body sensations, of oppression and a tight solar plexus (and perhaps that had something to do with being ‘roped in?’) Or, might the unease be related to ‘rabbit’, which I have read of being referred to as ‘Fear Caller?’ (Although I have no idea if this is in keeping with traditional beliefs, or is a ‘new age’ flirts with ‘medicine’ invention.)

I am also curious about the sending, with three senders. Were you sending as three people, or did you have a sense of sending as a group, being in tune with each other?

And thank you to all three of you! For trying something new, and taking a ‘risk’, not least.

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

NOW: I was amazed to see how many got a ceremonial site/religious site etc. That to me is very specific - woods often appear in dreams but a ceremonial site ???? AND who is Hannah with a rabbit and a ceremonial site?? Speak up Hannah!!! CONGRATULATIONS everyone.

NOW AGAIN: Curt is there anywhere on the net we can read about that site?

AND AGAIN: how exactly did the scoring work?? From just that information it looks odd - I know you said that you and Gosh agreed and Phil didn't. I can see that BUT what was the source of disagreement?? Afterall HOW WE judge whether a viewing is a hit is itself something we have to learn. So, for example if you take me, kathy, I got 10.5 from Phil (eh!!!) and 1 from Gosh (weep!!! but I'd agree!!!) and 4 from Curt #1 (thanks but probably very accurate too) - now I'm interested - just from a scientific viewpoint you understand, nothing personal eh eh!!! - what were counting Phil?? I'd say you were spot on of course!!!!
AND if I were rating my seeing I'd give it close to 0 BUT I'd give catching three senders at the one place all having a slightly different view as being pretty good - though off the topic!!! I was thinking that doing this might train my mind to look more clearly for the topic - at the moment it grabs what its interested in - never mind the aim!!!

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE OTHER'S SUBMISSIONS - SO PLEASE PUT THEM UP EVERYONE.

AND YES SAO - it is good to be as precise as possible!!! I like your Indian - I guess the site is exactly like that Indian now, is it???
Anyway thanks all.
Kathy

"I was making interview with Craig and Anjali from India on the internet. But Craig was responding me as; "to reply my questions first I have to honor Lola (or lila)" I can't understand what he mean and getting frustrated trying to send questions with e-mail to a far away island but recieving such a reply. A woman is offering me flowers and I am wondering if they have such colorful flowers in India and Anjali is giving me flowers instead of replies. We are somewhere on an island like an old dream of mine which has waving trees on top a mountain but later I am learning they are waving because of the gas from the volcano. We are sitting our legs under us facing with Harry on the mountain in my old dream. I am thinking; although this place don't looks like Netherlands, the RV target may be sitll be Harry selected / looking something related with this old dream and I must find it when I wake up."

I was really prepearing questions for interview with Craig Webb and Anjali Hazarika all that day. And for a second I tried to imagine Canada map in my mind and I thought if Craig is living in Quebec and if it is an island in fact because I also recieved a mail from an Egyptian - Canadian friend of mine the same day, informing me about his summer trip to Turkey.

The old dream I remembered in this dream was;
6 April 2003

FLYING TO ISLAND- CEMETERY-PLANTING FLOWERS

1- "I was flying on a huge sea, an ocean may be. There was only the darker blue sea with white waves here and there under me and the lighter blue sky with white clouds here and there over me. I was flying joyfully in the middle of all blue sea and the sky. It was like, I was lost in blue emptiness. No lands, no birds in the horizon, no fish jumping in the sea or anything. Just me flying. Than I saw a green-brown in the horizon. When I flied closer, it became a volcano shaped island. When I get more closer, I saw the top of the island (mountain) was opening and closing like waving with the wind. (I didn't get lucid) I get curious how can it be. I said/ asked myself, if it can be some kind of a man made fun land instead of a real island. I flied nearer and made a turn, close to the opening top, to see how it can be. I didn't fly over the top, thinking, because I don't know the reason it may be dangerous. When I looked closer what I saw was; the island was covered with green trees, colored flowers and little toy like houses. There were people with lots of children, all happy. At the top of the island (which I saw before as opening and closing) there were very huge, giant palm trees around a water resource. The water was squirting up very high, getting down and squirting up again with a slight white vapor and it was what making the giant trees waving like opening and closing the top of the mountain. Waves were stroking the land around the island with white foams. I get lucid than watching. I begin to think, if this dream is wanting to tell me something. I stayed floating high near the island and go on thinking. First I thought with peoples happiness I can see, it can't mean anything bad. Than I thought, it looks like a paradise or some kind of an oasis. Than I remembered the story of Noah in the Holly Books I read and look for any birds or wooden ships but there were non. The island was like isolated from outer world (if there was any). Than I wondered if anything happened to the world when I was sleeping and only this island saved. I thought and thought over and over about many possibilities watching the island. At the end I decided, this must be a quiz for me to solve when I woke up."

2- "I found myself looking a house made of stones in the middle of a garden. The house was facing the National Assembly on the other side of the road. It was dark night. The house was not mine. But there was two options for me; to spend the night in a graveyard nearby or in the house. I was thinking that it is better to spend the night in the graveyard than disturbing the owner of the house. But the lady (speaking with our minds) who was the owner of the house told that; she was forgiving me and want me to stay because she, herself spent nights in graveyards running away from the soldiers before, so she knows what it means and already paid for both of us. The house was the first house on a large street and its number was 1.111. I opened the iron garden door (which was an artwork) walked up the stone steps in the garden to the house. She gave a blond boy child with blue eyes in my arms. I looked at the boy's beautiful face with love and told her; I also have many relatives like him. Than I planted colorful flowers under (around the roots) the pine trees in the garden, holding the boy in an arm

------------------------------------------

After Harry's last call, I tried an awake RV;

I saw glaseses. Transparent , not transparent, colored, colorless, in differens shapes, straight and not. They are valuable, may be crystal (Italian?). They are ordinary pieces, on windows, walls, art etc.

RV: The first impression is of a flat, rectangular surface, which appears to be either reflecting light, or else is lit from below. It could be water or glass lit from below, or it could be water or metal, reflecting light. I think it is surrounded by buildings or stone walls, but it is very indistinct.

Next I’m aware that the top of my head hurts, reminding me of when I earlier in the week hit it when I stood straight too soon after stepping through a low doorway. I feel it with my fingers, but the spot isn’t tender, so instead I wonder if the sender has just had to duck as if stepping through a low doorway.

I feel uncomfortable, and wonder if I am underground, it feels heavy and slightly oppressive. Impressions are not coming easily, and I keep distracting myself by wondering about the target being ‘special’.

I try to focus on sensing the sender, and I think it is a man, and I think the target is somewhere in northern Europe.

The oppressive feeling remains, and as I glance at the clock I realise with some surprise that the sending time has almost passed. I wonder if the target is a dungeon, or old prison, a place where time, at least such a short span as thirty minutes, has lost some of its meaning. My solar plexus feels tight and I feel like I want to come up and out to breathe.

Dream account: I decided to take the viewing to bed with me, to see if dreams showed anything to add. This morning I had, not exactly what I call one of my 'map dreams,' but a dream that seemed centred on the structural, as if I was visiting a location and merely looking at it.

I found myself on a flat surface, surrounded on all sides by steep cliff walls, probably about 20-30 metres high (about 70-100 feet). The cliff walls looked like they were what had been left standing, with softer components eroded away. I was aware of the sea, pretty much on the other side of the wall (to the southeast, I think) although I couldn't see it. It is fairly early in the morning, feels like 6 am (in the dream) yet the sun is already quite high. There are no people about.

I had a sense in the dream, a thought, that this relates to the RV target and that it does not contradict my waking attempt.

The ‘stone needles’ were no part of the dream, but of my reasoning, and were meant to illustrate what the target was not.

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.

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sao (Jul 17, 2004 07:00 p.m.):
First, the only problem I have was the announcing that there was 'something special and unique' about this challenge at the outset. In my opinion it's hard enough to get past guessing and all those other pesky little mind games without being given extra reasons to guess and play pesky little mind games. I don't feel it's terribly significant, but it was frustrating, and I think such comment should be avoided in future. I feel the 'blankness' of announcing these challenges should be considered critical even if they may deviate from the 'norm.'

---

I fully agree. The decision to post this was entirely Harry's -- we didn't have any input into it.

---

Curt, I'd say as well as not working well in a print format, the tables and encapsulated headers do little for the participants comprehension either. For instance I'm having a hard time with how "squiggles" gains a score of 14, 15, 14.5, and 13.5. Clearly must be something missing there...

---

---

On my own part, I did get some 'personal' hits, or hits that the senders might not glean from my submission. I think my conscious impressions were a little iffy-but might be significant in some way since Curt was sending a 'template' rather than the experience of the site and what I got seemed to be sort of like a partial template,

---

I agree that you got some good hits, especially locating the target in New England (you were the only one to do this)! If you look at my submissions, you will see that I posted both the experience of the site and the template. The template showed up in my vision about midway through the sending.

---

But my dream was pretty interesting. I mention I was "playing a gig with s, d and k,' but did not mention (or realize myself till later) that 's, d and k' are two male and one female friend who live in three different places out of town... 'remote friends' so to speak. I also saw myself in a church, and walked up on the altar (I assume the stones may have had such purpose) and found three $100 bills, which it seems to me, may have been an attempt to tell myself that the 'trinity' had significance. Also in retrospect the 'church' was only a partial structure, or a ruin, with entire walls missing through which I glimpsed a wooded area. I also described men with brown face-paint wearing derbies (hats), but did not go into detail that these men strongly reminded me of some of Cormac Mcarthy's sort of signature "apocalyptic indian warriors" which are often seen in bizarre and incongruous scavenged clothing (such as wedding dresses). I didn't describe it but in retrospect aspects of the 'brown man' I encountered reminded me of the stereotypical 'dime store indian' - sort of a mute and inscrutable urbanized medicine man.

---

There is an important object lesson here for everyone, and that is that we should share all of our impressions, as disconnected they may seem. I would mention that modern Native "medicine men" do visit this site -- the first visit Gosh and I paid to the site (about a month before the RV) we were in the company of one. (This may partially answer Kay's (?) earlier question about how the site was/is used.)

---

Also the 'tone' of both my conscious and dreamt submissions seemed a little... uncomfortable, a little angsted and paranoid... which leads me to wonder if anyone was a little 'psychically uncomfortable' at the site... (obviously Kathy seems to be picking up on this as well)

---

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Usually in participating I feel it's proper to minimalize the information as much as possible. I try to avoid the fishiness of submitting encyclopedic lists of colors, geometric shapes and geographies, lol. Usually I submit the actual entry from my dream journal without much elaboration, but I do write these entries in a kind of shorthand to myself, or more truly, I leave out a lot of detail because I know the word images will usually re-evoke the visual image in my head without being intensely specific. Just an acknowledgment that I think in future I'll try to be as descriptive and thorough as possible about the details of the dreams/impressions.

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As they say, "The devil is in the details". (Sometimes, anyway!)

Best,
Curt

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Kay (Jul 17, 2004 09:10 p.m.):
I too struggled with the ‘special’ about this viewing, for each impression or thought that entered my head there was a censorial one to cancel it, for not being ‘special’ enough. And I can make neither heads nor tails of the numbers – how can someone get 9.5 or 13 on a scale of 0 to 5? But then that strain of maths never sat well with me.

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Kay -- see my comments to Sao. The numbers are ranks, not scores!

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I’ll add a curious little note here: in my not so successful attempt at interpreting my impressions, about the last thing I said was that I was going to stick my neck out, real far… (and be decisive about the location) and I almost deleted the comment before sending the email, because it felt out of character for me to say it. And when I saw the target, the turtle image in particular, this comment of mine came back to me. If I had been making comments about a dream, more in general, I would have paid attention to that myself, but at that point my mind was set on what I thought I had perceived. Now it almost looks like a last attempt of my dreaming mind…

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Very interesting! Again a devilish detail! Now, if you had been sticking your neck out in the direction of WNW (summer solstice sunset) that would indeed have been a hit!

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The site, then. Is there more information to be had about it? In my post above I asked about other uses, if it was a place where a tribe (tribes?) gathered at the solstices, would that have coincided with councils of the Elders, for example? Matters brought before the Elders? Of justice? Marriages? That was kind of what I was after, and I thought it interesting to see that sao had dreamt of a church.

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One of the things Native sacred practitioners have learned over the past 500 years of contact with Europeans is to protect their traditions, which ordinarily means keeping them secret. (This is also the case in Australia, isn't it?) The only reason they are stepping forward now and seeking cooperation from archaeologists and local officials is that many of these sacred sites, for the first time, are seriously under threat of development. (Not Turtle Rock, which is in a State park.) What they tell us is that we do not need to know what the sites were used for, just that they are (and continue to be) sacred places. I can respect that! What I can tell you is that all of us felt welcomed by the site (perhaps because Gosh & I had visited it with a Native person earlier in the spring) and that the site seemed to be quite receptive to the practice of ritual and meditation. Whatever psychic barriers there may have been in place had been removed, at least for our visit. I would add that there is no signage that directs one to the site, it is on an unmarked trail off the main trail. And that there are at least three other turtle rocks within a 15 mile radius of this one, the location of one of which is a closely guarded secret by the Natives (even I, who have compiled an inventory of 676 archaeological sites in the watershed where it is, have not been given its location!).

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I am also curious about the sending, with three senders. Were you sending as three people, or did you have a sense of sending as a group, being in tune with each other?

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We were very definitely conscious that we were sending as a group. When we arrived at the site, I picked out a spot where I wanted to sit (I had actually decided on this, generally, some time before) and I directed Gosh and Phil to choose their own locations while I did a bit of preparatory ritual. As it happened, we formed a nearly perfect equilateral triangle. And we consciously sent out the image of the site as a group. It was Gosh's idea to make a tobacco offering, but something like this had occurred to me also during the sending -- without figuring out what the offering should be -- and so we all did this by way of thanking the genius loci of the site for allowing us to do this work.

The problem with interpreting the results came later -- I think that here we did revert to being individuals. If anyone tries multiple senders again, I would suggest that in addition to meeting at the time of the sending, the group again meet on the physical plane rather than cyberspace to go over the results.

Thanks for your input!

Curt

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kathy turner (Jul 17, 2004 09:23 p.m.):

NOW AGAIN: Curt is there anywhere on the net we can read about that site?

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The only information - rather sketchy -- is at http://www.mass.gov/dem/parks/gbfm.htm. At least it does mention the existence of Native American sacred sites on the premises. See my comments to Kay about the need to keep some of this under wraps.

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AND AGAIN: how exactly did the scoring work?? From just that information it looks odd - I know you said that you and Gosh agreed and Phil didn't. I can see that BUT what was the source of disagreement?? Afterall HOW WE judge whether a viewing is a hit is itself something we have to learn. So, for example if you take me, kathy, I got 10.5 from Phil (eh!!!) and 1 from Gosh (weep!!! but I'd agree!!!) and 4 from Curt #1 (thanks but probably very accurate too) - now I'm interested - just from a scientific viewpoint you understand, nothing personal eh eh!!! - what were counting Phil?? I'd say you were spot on of course!!!!
AND if I were rating my seeing I'd give it close to 0 BUT I'd give catching three senders at the one place all having a slightly different view as being pretty good - though off the topic!!! I was thinking that doing this might train my mind to look more clearly for the topic - at the moment it grabs what its interested in - never mind the aim!!!

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AND YES SAO - it is good to be as precise as possible!!! I like your Indian - I guess the site is exactly like that Indian now, is it???

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Not really. It's in pretty good shape, and there was no noticeable litter there. Just up the trail is a Colonial era dam and fireplace (some views of this in Gosh's pix) and a caretaker cabin. But the site itself is pretty much unspoiled. Just like modern Indians who have taken on "protective coloration" but are still very much present on the landscape!

Thanks for your comments!

Curt

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elýf (Jul 17, 2004 11:41 p.m.):
Somebody asked me in mail about my submission. It is not important I can share. These were my submissions before I wanted to be removed from the challage- ilkin

"I was making interview with Craig and Anjali from India on the internet. But Craig was responding me as; "to reply my questions first I have to honor Lola (or lila)" I can't understand what he mean and getting frustrated trying to send questions with e-mail to a far away island but recieving such a reply. A woman is offering me flowers and I am wondering if they have such colorful flowers in India and Anjali is giving me flowers instead of replies. We are somewhere on an island like an old dream of mine which has waving trees on top a mountain but later I am learning they are waving because of the gas from the volcano. We are sitting our legs under us facing with Harry on the mountain in my old dream. I am thinking; although this place don't looks like Netherlands, the RV target may be sitll be Harry selected / looking something related with this old dream and I must find it when I wake up."

I was really prepearing questions for interview with Craig Webb and Anjali Hazarika all that day. And for a second I tried to imagine Canada map in my mind and I thought if Craig is living in Quebec and if it is an island in fact because I also recieved a mail from an Egyptian - Canadian friend of mine the same day, informing me about his summer trip to Turkey.

The old dream I remembered in this dream was;
6 April 2003

FLYING TO ISLAND- CEMETERY-PLANTING FLOWERS

1- "I was flying on a huge sea, an ocean may be. There was only the darker blue sea with white waves here and there under me and the lighter blue sky with white clouds here and there over me. I was flying joyfully in the middle of all blue sea and the sky. It was like, I was lost in blue emptiness. No lands, no birds in the horizon, no fish jumping in the sea or anything. Just me flying. Than I saw a green-brown in the horizon. When I flied closer, it became a volcano shaped island. When I get more closer, I saw the top of the island (mountain) was opening and closing like waving with the wind. (I didn't get lucid) I get curious how can it be. I said/ asked myself, if it can be some kind of a man made fun land instead of a real island. I flied nearer and made a turn, close to the opening top, to see how it can be. I didn't fly over the top, thinking, because I don't know the reason it may be dangerous. When I looked closer what I saw was; the island was covered with green trees, colored flowers and little toy like houses. There were people with lots of children, all happy. At the top of the island (which I saw before as opening and closing) there were very huge, giant palm trees around a water resource. The water was squirting up very high, getting down and squirting up again with a slight white vapor and it was what making the giant trees waving like opening and closing the top of the mountain. Waves were stroking the land around the island with white foams. I get lucid than watching. I begin to think, if this dream is wanting to tell me something. I stayed floating high near the island and go on thinking. First I thought with peoples happiness I can see, it can't mean anything bad. Than I thought, it looks like a paradise or some kind of an oasis. Than I remembered the story of Noah in the Holly Books I read and look for any birds or wooden ships but there were non. The island was like isolated from outer world (if there was any). Than I wondered if anything happened to the world when I was sleeping and only this island saved. I thought and thought over and over about many possibilities watching the island. At the end I decided, this must be a quiz for me to solve when I woke up."

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As I indicated to Ilkin in a private post, I considered her vision of the island to be a very palpable hit on the symbolic significance of the site. The turtle, in Native mythology, was the first solid thing to emerge from the primordial ocean. Natives refer to the North American continental plate as "Turtle Island".

Curt

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Kay (Jul 18, 2004 03:53 a.m.):
OK, I’ll post my impressions and dream, but have removed my interpretation – that was the embarrassing bit… Beyond the first paragraph of the viewing I did not actually see anything, it was like staring into blackness.

RV: The first impression is of a flat, rectangular surface, which appears to be either reflecting light, or else is lit from below. It could be water or glass lit from below, or it could be water or metal, reflecting light. I think it is surrounded by buildings or stone walls, but it is very indistinct.

Next I’m aware that the top of my head hurts, reminding me of when I earlier in the week hit it when I stood straight too soon after stepping through a low doorway. I feel it with my fingers, but the spot isn’t tender, so instead I wonder if the sender has just had to duck as if stepping through a low doorway.

I feel uncomfortable, and wonder if I am underground, it feels heavy and slightly oppressive. Impressions are not coming easily, and I keep distracting myself by wondering about the target being ‘special’.

I try to focus on sensing the sender, and I think it is a man, and I think the target is somewhere in northern Europe.

The oppressive feeling remains, and as I glance at the clock I realise with some surprise that the sending time has almost passed. I wonder if the target is a dungeon, or old prison, a place where time, at least such a short span as thirty minutes, has lost some of its meaning. My solar plexus feels tight and I feel like I want to come up and out to breathe.

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The senders all had the impression that you might have wound up underneath the turtle!

[quote]

If it is kept secret how/ what / why site is used for and what ever there may be remorved for your visit and there is nearly no information; how can we be sure that the participants didn't made more hits than known in appearance? I certainly don't know about the dreams or awake RV's but how can we be sure that somebody might made a direct hit about all or partly how the site is used, what happened there, who were there in the past or a night before etc. I am really curious. ilkin

Hi Kathy, I somehow ended up at this site a while back and I'm so impressed with the great info and interesting topics here. I have never had an opportunity to do anything like this in an organized way. I've always had these kinds of experiences, but they've always been random, so thanks so much to everyone responsible for the opportunity to paricipate. I'm looking forward to getting to know people here and the participating in the next challenge!

I'll try to share my complete impressions...
The first thing that came into my mind was Mexico(way off), then I started seeing images of various animals. The only one that resurfaced multiple times was rabbit. Next I assumed that there was a religious significance to the site because I saw a tall white church and a person in red standing in front of a tall white figure with arms outstretched. (I mistakenly interpreted these to mean that the site was related to Christianity, I know now that next time I should be careful about jumping to conclusions about meaning. I think that eventually you have to be able to interpret what you see (right?) but apparently at this point I should just observe and record my impressions.) The colors red and white were reoccuring.

I have a lot of Native American ancestry, (a lot of full-blooded Cherokees not too far from me on the family tree) and I'm very interested in Native American spirituality and beliefs so this was great for me!

I did the rv in June, but I chickened out about sharing my vision, then after I realized I was close, I was not nervous about participating this time, and I'm really glad I did, very fun!

Hannah

Comment: Some matches I see - multiple people in the boating party, traveling to an island / multiple senders, traveling to the target site. "Tahiti" - lush green parklike island, primitive / the lush green park setting, rocks. The canal of dark water surrounded by forest / the stream of dark water surrounded by forest (see rvjuly04setting.jpg which looks very much like the dreamscape I experienced). The wooden dock in my dream / the wooden bridge on the ay to the target site. The paradise association of Tahiti / the paradise-like setting of the target site. The cabin cruiser seemed pretty flimsy - more like an large old volkswagon van with thin walls, faded pink-red and white paint. I had this dream at about 9 AM EDT, Sunday, 6 hours before the three senders arrived at the target site. Of course, this dream has many matches with Ilkin's dream. Ilkin do you know about what time did you had your dream? Considering our different time zones, unless you had a dream in the afternoon they probably don't match, but I still feel curious.

Ed

Important Note:

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First I want to say Congratulations! to everyone who participated in this RV contest, because "Everyone" got some hits, which is no small feat, folks!

I think everyone in this contest had some target hits, some obvious, some less obvious. As the discussion progresses I think we will all see a few more connections, because by nature this is an "iterative" process of discovery, with some things not previously deemed important, becoming more so as we explore the data, our impressions, and what we elected to document, vs. leave out due to our own "second guessing."

Ed: Thanks for posting your dream. I think you had many "hits." I asked you about your "van" impression because I held a secret from the RV Sending Team, which I only presented after the fact, and after your BB question about a van and our method of arrival to the site. Here's my explanation: Our sending team was advised by Harry that some RV/dream receivers might be attempting to access information about the site prior to the sending event/time. Curt attempted to protect the group, and our foreknowledge, by placing a white light around the group, keeping our knowledge secret until the time of the event. I took an extra precaution, unbeknownst to Curt and Phil, and created an image of a van that I could project, in the event I "felt" someone using some psi-snooping ahead of time. So, for the four days prior to the event, I actually did end up sending out the picture of a van (Dodge Caravan) in the color of yellow and sometimes white) to anyone who might be psi-snooping.)
That's why I found your Van reference interesting.... And now also your dream image of a 40ish slender woman with darkish hair telling you in your dream that you would just have to wait until tomorrow!

I would like to assure all of you that once we prepared to enter the site, all guarding of foreknowledge was completely released, as we all entered into a group ritual of cleansing and opening up to the site, to send the fullness of what we seeing/experiencing at the site. And as a note, the site welcomed each one of us as we prepared to cross the bridge to the site. The energy was palpable, and I for one felt a light yet powerful tingling energy envelope my body, starting with my head and spreading all around me. (who said they felt a pressure on their head, like they had to duck?) It certainly was an energy that made me feel humbled to something much greater than myself.

As for the colors of red/white, and symbols of Christianity: Well, Curt invoked the symbol of the "rosy cross," which he hasn't mentioned yet, prior to the sending. The symbol was invoked as a result of a pre-meeting discussion to plan for the sending, in which our discussion meandered to the Egyptian mystery cult of the Rosicrucians. Phil happens to be a student of Egyptology, and I had brought a picture of the Goddess Nut (pronounced newet) for him to look at. BTW, Phil can read heiroglyphics, and we discussed that also, so Diana T's submission may be more significant than the judges earlier thought.....

So, given this additional information, some receivers had more hits based on red/white colors and any forms in the shape of a cross.

As for a few of you having felt a sense of angst/paranoia, or some tightness in the body (who said "solar plexus?) well, I can say that the sending experience, and site, was tremendously peaceful. However, there was a moment when I heard human voices off in the distance and at that moment hoped they were not coming our way for I feared it would intrude upon our "peacefulness" and focus. I don't know if the other senders picked up on this, or not.

Perhaps the "solar plexus" reference may have come to any one of the three senders, since we all sat through most of the thirty minutes on the ground cross-legged, and I know I got up about five minutes before the conclusion to have a smoke and stretch out my body as I finished up sending my impressions. So another hit?

Well, I think everyone did an outstanding job of picking up details of the site, symbolically, as well as so many of the concrete (or should I say 'granite') aspects of the beautiful and sacred site we were at.

Best Regards,

Goshengolly

PS: Ed, we didn't use your PDKQ questionnaire, but I thought frequently about it after the fact as we tried to judge the results. I think that we would have benefited from using it, if there had been a way to tie it into the scoring sheet that Curt developed. I think we need more collaboration in developing an adequate measurement/scoring system. I also found that it was essential for me to have specific remarks placed in the categories we judged on, before I could rate the hits effectively.

I am seeing some additional details that you picked up on that should be noted... some of this was debated prior to determining the results.

Curt held to strict standards related to scoring details of the site. I think this is necessary, but there were 4 categories, as you recall, and many of the hits fell "somewhere in between" them.

We scored based on the best hits in (4) categories:
1) Geographic Location
2) Site Details
3) Symbolic Details (specific to the meaning/purpose of site)
4) Personal Details

For Example: Kathy T. described a place "where three different times and places are held together...city skyline...suburb from earlier last century; medieval Europe" I thought she had a good hit regarding geographic location, because we were near the historical town of Concord, MA, which was an important site during the colonial war. Concord lies close by, but outside the City skyline of Boston, MA. And I had an impression of a medieval ruin as I crossed the bridge to the site, after looking at an old stone wall surrounding a moat like area, encasing the dark stream that flowed from the small pond at the site. We couldn't score this as a direct hit of geographic location however. Very frustrating since it was an intriguing perception, I felt, of what was "nearby," or at the site.

Some of you saw a white gate (Tjitske saw this very clearly, and Sao saw it more "symbolically"). This was an excellent hit, but it was not at the site, but rather a gate we had to go around to get to the site. So I give you both high scores for that!

Leon saw an airfield, which I felt was a significant hit for "geographic location," since a major military airfield is in the area of where we were, and we heard planes overhead during the sending.
But we were working with strict limits as to the definition of "Geographic Location," so it was weighted less than other descriptions.

Dreambjo's description of "a park like wilderness area" and Sao's reference to New England were the strongest hits following the criteria we were trying to use.

Other interesting notes: we passed by a path leading to "an old garrison," likely 17 century, enroute to the site. Our path was strewn with the hoof-prints of some horses, and horse manure; the Turtle outcrop had melted wax on its back and Curt surmised a recent ritual there. I couldn't help but wonder if it had been used for a "fertility" ritual recently, since Turtle's back was quite flat, making for a nice "bedding" ground (my perception only...); the town we met in likely had cobblestone streets in centuries past, which may remain hidden under the current blacktop streets; red brick buildings (federal period) can be found a plenty; the town we were in is a "stones throw" (10 miles?) to hundreds of New England harbor towns, with its waterways pouring into the sea...When I left the site I drove Phil to his car, which was parked in front of a church (aha!).

Well, these were my own subjective impressions, but I felt they were worth sharing...I think that each of us in the sending team had our own unique impressions of the site, and how they related to the four categories we tried to place YOUR impressions in, which made merging and scoring the data a huge challenge.

So... I think everyone did much better than the scoring sheets indicate! The "hits" during this contest amazed me, as they have in all of the other contests. Congratulations again! I really loved having the opportunity to be a sender this time around. It was an honor! So Thank YOU!

XO,

Goshengolly

P.S. "yes, it seems the Devil is in the details"... At the same time, it is nice to see that the Devil is not alone there. Perhaps there is some "thing" even more powerful and magnificent than the Devil hiding there!

At some place that is like an airfield, there's a runway beneath me. I'm being pulled into the sky while holding on to some kind of handle which is tied to a rope which is tied onto what must be either a winch or an aeroplane. It is too difficult to hold on, and I'm struggling to gain altitude. It's like being winched up while in a glider.) There's a big building with many stories to my left. It has many windows. Although I feel that I'm going higher, I'm still not higher than the building. There's a cessna airplane coming in to land or taking off using a runway below me. (The cessna airplane is also some way below me.)
I decide to abort this flight and then I'm in the office and I have to pay for the flight.
Shift
I have to exchange some old clothes for new clothes at a place where this is done. I'm trying to exchange an old pair of socks and a leather belt. Somebody at the exchange place asks that everybody must please stop taking the dead people's clothes because the dead peoples' families are coming to fetch them and then they must have clothes on.
End

I'm not sure what to make of this particular one. I do feel I had some hits, but I think I'll wait for next month to roll around.

Happy dreaming
Leon

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The senders all had the impression that you might have wound up underneath the turtle!

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Oi. OMG! <LOL!!!>

Right… OK, have to see how this hangs together. When I thought the sender was in northern Europe it was because I sensed him(?) as being to the northeast of me, assuming I was in the UK… But if I were under the turtle? Now, if the turtle’s head points WNW then the ‘template’ is ‘upside down’ in terms of the directions, yes? And assuming I kept my sense of direction while under the turtle, the sender to the northeast of me would be… Phil?

When I saw the photographs, if I regarded my dream images of rock walls as more structural, and ignoring the reference to the sea, I did wonder if I might have been on top of the turtle, surrounded by very high trees. I said the sea was to the southeast, but omitted to mention that it (the sea, or the southeast) was behind me on the left, the sun behind me but on my right, which means, since it was early morning in the dream, that I would have been facing, more or less, WNW… Not sure about sticking my neck out in that direction, though.

Seems that in addition to detail, spatial reference wouldn’t go amiss. Not just in what direction something is, but where it is in relation to my (one’s) vantage point. And if my own viewings so far offer anything to go by, it would seem I have a degree of structural level hits, and I should perhaps avoid interpreting them at the meaning level, or labelling them? Whereas other viewers’ talents lie primarily with the meaning level, which might make for easier labelling? Is this making sense?

Now, how would one rank the levels? In addition to identifying location, site details, symbolic details, and personal details? Lots to think about…

Kay

In your dreams, Psinderella, in your dreams.